Wordie: They: Comments

Comment by mollusque, about 1 month ago

Sun, 17 Aug 2008 04:39:01 +0000

Following up on the comments from nine months ago: Good use of their in the singular at berdache.

Comment by mollusque, 10 months ago

Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:14:05 +0000

Presumably they weren't of the slack variety.

Comment by chained_bear, 10 months ago

Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:51:56 +0000

Note: "themself" disappeared in thirty years--from 1540 to 1570--because that's how long it took us all to find the bastards and kill them.
;)
(that was a joke.)

Comment by reesetee, 10 months ago

Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:25:00 +0000

But there are many big pictures. Yes, my skin crawls when I hear these usages because I happen to be one of those grammar mavens (read: editors) who drive sionnach so crazy. (Unless, sionnach, you're referring to another group. :-)) Using "they" and "themself" in these ways may satisfy a need or fill some language niche, but I think in many cases (certainly not all), that "need" is to be sloppy or careless. Does anyone even bother to teach English grammar anymore in the first place?

My two cents....

Comment by oroboros, 10 months ago

Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:58:21 +0000

Those with the big picture!

Comment by mollusque, 10 months ago

Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:04:57 +0000

Interesting question c_b. I'd have to see the context to judge ambiguity or tell if my skin would crawl. "Themself" in place of "himself" or "herself" is the same to me as "they" in place of "it". "Themself instead of "themselves" is currently substandard, but "themself" is the older form: OED2 says it was the normal form to circa 1540, but disappeared circa 1570.

As an evolutionary biologist, I'd consider "themself" and "themselves" as memes competing with one another. Current linguistic pressures favor resurgence of "themself", but as a singular form. This is essentially niche displacement that makes it easier for the forms to coexist. I don't seen compelling reason to resist "themself", and it sounds more normal to me already just having heard it in my head over the last few minutes while writing this.

Comment by chained_bear, 10 months ago

Sun, 18 Nov 2007 03:32:31 +0000

Mollusque--do you count "themself" as unintended ambiguity? Because that's the emphatic form of using "they" in place of a singular pronoun. (I think I saw it on Facebook today and my skin almost literally crawled.) Or is it simply an Abomination in the Eyes of the Lord? (sorry--leading question...)

Comment by VanishedOne, 11 months ago

Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:42:55 +0000

I use 'he'. Offence is in the ear of the hearer.

Anyway, she murdered 'heo'.

Macquarrie and Robinson, translating Heidegger's Being and Time, rendered 'das Man' as 'the they' because 'the one' doesn't work in English. Inauthentic Dasein just does what one does.

Comment by mollusque, 11 months ago

Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:12:00 +0000

I think "they" is in the process of filling a gap in the language. Orally, "they" is often used in place of "he" or "she", especially where "it" would be insulting. It (they) can function not only to avoid sexism, but to protect confidentiality.

Using "they" this way in informal writing is fine with me. I did it in my comment on sought yesterday (and didn't notice until I looked it over before posting it). I let "they" stand because I didn't want "he" vs. "she" to distract from the main idea.

In formal writing, one can usually find ways to avoid the situation. Last year I rewrote the constitution of an organization to be gender-neutral without its being too stilted. Avoiding "he", "she" and "they" on the fly in conversation (without sounding like a bureaucrat) is harder. I think it's fascinating to watch the language evolve this way. Why fight it? Are there cases where unintended ambiguity results from saying "they" instead of "he" or "she"?

Comment by skipvia, 11 months ago

Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:43:03 +0000

To me, "they" refers to Tom and Dick Smothers.

Comment by John, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:54:34 +0000

I just use 'she.' I figure 'he' had it for a few thousand years, so if we use 'she' until the scales are balanced, it'll give us until 4007 to come up with an acceptable gender neutral alternative.

Comment by yarb, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:46:01 +0000

I agree that alternating 'he' and 'she' is often confusing. The trouble is, sionnach, 'they' isn't 100% clear either.

In the absence of a neuter singular pronoun, I think I favour rewriting, although this is sometimes difficult. There's nothing dishonourable in ducking a problem where none of the proposed solutions seem acceptable.

Comment by sionnach, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:38:33 +0000

Notice how "they" is increasingly being used as a neuter singular pronoun, to avoid saying he or she?

Yes, and I embrace it wholeheartedly. It satisfies an obvious need. The standard advice by the horrified mandarins and keepers of the flame (sorry, uselessness) tends to be:

1. use one of he or she, but for reasons of political correctness, using the same one all the time is unacceptable, so keep switching it around at random to ensure a 50% distribution across the genders.

yeah, like that's really going to foster clear, unambiguous communication!

2. rewrite the sentence to circumvent the issue.

THE HELL I WILL! This is the single most irritating "remedy" that grammar mavens have the gall to keep on suggesting. Because it's not a remedy at all, just an idiotic ducking of the issue.

Fortunately, in another ten years this particular 'issue' will have been laid to rest.

Comment by uselessness, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:28:05 +0000

Yes. It annoys me to no end. Admittedly, there are times when we need a good neuter singular pronoun, but that's not it. I guess I'm rather politically incorrect these days, but I think using he is a good old standard that people understood. It's not really worth getting upset about, in my opinion, but then again I'm a man. ;-)

I think part of the problem is also the increasing frequency of addressing collective units in the plural. When Microsoft does something, for example, it does it as one entity, not as "them" or "they."

Comment by yarb, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:27:30 +0000

Yes mollusque, and I'm not sure I like it. Do you think there's a gap in the language here?

Comment by mollusque, 11 months ago

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:18:25 +0000

Notice how "they" is increasingly being used as a neuter singular pronoun, to avoid saying he or she?

Comment by reesetee, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:40:37 +0000

No! It's true!

Comment by uselessness, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:24:37 +0000

They Live.

Comment by reesetee, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:17:48 +0000

I always thought They were in some grand, wood-paneled conference room. And it always seemed necessary to capitalize the word. ;-)

Comment by trivet, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:11:17 +0000

For me, "they" were little old ladies sitting around a quilt.

Comment by npydyuan, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:44:16 +0000

Ha! Nice. I always thought "they" were a vast, faceless corporation, running everything Illuminati-style.

Comment by uselessness, about 1 year ago

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:18:18 +0000

"You know what they say..."

As a kid I always imagined "them" to be a married couple sitting in the den passing time by making up stupid phrases to tell their friends the next day. I vowed to find these people when I grew up, and stop them from confusing the language so much.

Comment by patiomensch, about 1 year ago

Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:36:10 +0000

In place of "their," e.g. "He went to they field and threw they ball." This is a reference to Tobias Wolff, by the way.