they

Following up on the comments from nine months ago: Good use of their in the singular at berdache.

Presumably they weren't of the slack variety.

Note: "themself" disappeared in thirty years--from 1540 to 1570--because that's how long it took us all to find the bastards and kill them.
;)
(that was a joke.)

But there are many big pictures. Yes, my skin crawls when I hear these usages because I happen to be one of those grammar mavens (read: editors) who drive sionnach so crazy. (Unless, sionnach, you're referring to another group. :-)) Using "they" and "themself" in these ways may satisfy a need or fill some language niche, but I think in many cases (certainly not all), that "need" is to be sloppy or careless. Does anyone even bother to teach English grammar anymore in the first place?

My two cents....

Those with the big picture!

Interesting question c_b. I'd have to see the context to judge ambiguity or tell if my skin would crawl. "Themself" in place of "himself" or "herself" is the same to me as "they" in place of "it". "Themself instead of "themselves" is currently substandard, but "themself" is the older form: OED2 says it was the normal form to circa 1540, but disappeared circa 1570.

As an evolutionary biologist, I'd consider "themself" and "themselves" as memes competing with one another. Current linguistic pressures favor resurgence of "themself", but as a singular form. This is essentially niche displacement that makes it easier for the forms to coexist. I don't seen compelling reason to resist "themself", and it sounds more normal to me already just having heard it in my head over the last few minutes while writing this.

Mollusque--do you count "themself" as unintended ambiguity? Because that's the emphatic form of using "they" in place of a singular pronoun. (I think I saw it on Facebook today and my skin almost literally crawled.) Or is it simply an Abomination in the Eyes of the Lord? (sorry--leading question...)

I use 'he'. Offence is in the ear of the hearer.

Anyway, she murdered 'heo'.

Macquarrie and Robinson, translating Heidegger's Being and Time, rendered 'das Man' as 'the they' because 'the one' doesn't work in English. Inauthentic Dasein just does what one does.

I think "they" is in the process of filling a gap in the language. Orally, "they" is often used in place of "he" or "she", especially where "it" would be insulting. It (they) can function not only to avoid sexism, but to protect confidentiality.

Using "they" this way in informal writing is fine with me. I did it in my comment on sought yesterday (and didn't notice until I looked it over before posting it). I let "they" stand because I didn't want "he" vs. "she" to distract from the main idea.

In formal writing, one can usually find ways to avoid the situation. Last year I rewrote the constitution of an organization to be gender-neutral without its being too stilted. Avoiding "he", "she" and "they" on the fly in conversation (without sounding like a bureaucrat) is harder. I think it's fascinating to watch the language evolve this way. Why fight it? Are there cases where unintended ambiguity results from saying "they" instead of "he" or "she"?

To me, "they" refers to Tom and Dick Smothers.

I just use 'she.' I figure 'he' had it for a few thousand years, so if we use 'she' until the scales are balanced, it'll give us until 4007 to come up with an acceptable gender neutral alternative.

I agree that alternating 'he' and 'she' is often confusing. The trouble is, sionnach, 'they' isn't 100% clear either.

In the absence of a neuter singular pronoun, I think I favour rewriting, although this is sometimes difficult. There's nothing dishonourable in ducking a problem where none of the proposed solutions seem acceptable.

Notice how "they" is increasingly being used as a neuter singular pronoun, to avoid saying he or she?

Yes, and I embrace it wholeheartedly. It satisfies an obvious need. The standard advice by the horrified mandarins and keepers of the flame (sorry, uselessness) tends to be:

1. use one of he or she, but for reasons of political correctness, using the same one all the time is unacceptable, so keep switching it around at random to ensure a 50% distribution across the genders.

yeah, like that's really going to foster clear, unambiguous communication!

2. rewrite the sentence to circumvent the issue.

THE HELL I WILL! This is the single most irritating "remedy" that grammar mavens have the gall to keep on suggesting. Because it's not a remedy at all, just an idiotic ducking of the issue.

Fortunately, in another ten years this particular 'issue' will have been laid to rest.

Yes. It annoys me to no end. Admittedly, there are times when we need a good neuter singular pronoun, but that's not it. I guess I'm rather politically incorrect these days, but I think using he is a good old standard that people understood. It's not really worth getting upset about, in my opinion, but then again I'm a man. ;-)

I think part of the problem is also the increasing frequency of addressing collective units in the plural. When Microsoft does something, for example, it does it as one entity, not as "them" or "they."

Yes mollusque, and I'm not sure I like it. Do you think there's a gap in the language here?

Notice how "they" is increasingly being used as a neuter singular pronoun, to avoid saying he or she?

No! It's true!

They Live.

I always thought They were in some grand, wood-paneled conference room. And it always seemed necessary to capitalize the word. ;-)

For me, "they" were little old ladies sitting around a quilt.

Ha! Nice. I always thought "they" were a vast, faceless corporation, running everything Illuminati-style.

"You know what they say..."

As a kid I always imagined "them" to be a married couple sitting in the den passing time by making up stupid phrases to tell their friends the next day. I vowed to find these people when I grew up, and stop them from confusing the language so much.

In place of "their," e.g. "He went to they field and threw they ball." This is a reference to Tobias Wolff, by the way.